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Aluzion 
Tuque Collector
Registration Date: 03-03-2002
Clan: (MA)
Location: Montreal, Quebec
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The French Revoultion was a result of Capitalism and never considdered the same could happen to a Socialist gov't.
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[citation needed]
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07-11-2004 19:20 |
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ScratchMonkey
Ghost in the Machine
Registration Date: 11-10-2002
Clan: (M*)
Location: San Pablo, CA
Thread Starter 
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07-11-2004 19:40 |
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Aluzion
Tuque Collector
Registration Date: 03-03-2002
Clan: (MA)
Location: Montreal, Quebec
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Thats not what I remebered but I needed some correcting in my memory.
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In the 1700's there was social inequality in France. Taxes and laws differed in each province causing confusion and injustice. Louis XIV and Louis XV both left big debts when they died, making France nearly bankrupt. The clergy and nobles had plenty of money but the king couldn't tax the wealthy. Louis XVI asked the First and Second Estates to accept a land tax, but they refused. In 1789, the country was in a financial crisis.
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On October 1st, the Legislative Assembly, which was made up mainly of the members of the middle class, opened. Its stability depended mainly on cooperation from the King and the public but it faced many challenges as King Louis XVI strongly opposed its formation as well as the revolution. The king plotted to overthrow the Legislative Assembly with other aristocrats and emigrees. Public was divided as Catholics were angered by the new religious policies while others demanded stronger action to be taken against opposers of the revolution. King Louis clearly showed support for the enemy when France faced foreign threats in 1972. This action angered the French people and they demanded to have King Louis dethroned. The constitutional monarchy ended when King Louis and his family were imprisoned. This resulted in the Legislative Assembly calling for a new constitution and a National Convention, to be elected on the basis of universal adult male suffrage. A combined allied army of Prussia and Austria invaded Northeastern France in August 1792. The people of Paris feared an uprising by the people in the prisons who could be influenced by the armies invading France. In September 1792 some Parisians took the law in their own hands and executed over 1000 prisoners. The September Massacres, as the executions were later known as, turned many Frenchmen against the revolution. The allied troops marched towards Paris but were met and defeated by French regular army troops on September 20th at Valmy. The French victory also ended the internal crisis in Paris. An Austrian army was defeated again by the French, in the Battle of Jemappes.
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http://www.portervillehigh.nu/department...tm#The%20Causes
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[citation needed]
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07-11-2004 20:10 |
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AMOC
Chopper Pilot
Registration Date: 08-08-2003
Clan: (MA)
Location: Texas
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The French Revolution was a result of a dictactorial monarchy. A capitalist would not have had any part of france then. Nothing in it for them to make profit, since the monarchy at any given time could take it away from the owners.
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07-11-2004 21:02 |
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Rein of Kaos
Viking
Registration Date: 09-25-2002
Clan: MA
Location: Phoenixville, PA
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I don't post much in here, but this stuff is entertaining. If it's one thing i am proud of, it's that most of you guys do your research and logically debate. which is more than i can say about the other debates, articles, forum posts i've read on different sites.
I enjoy reading about politics, and trust me, i do have my opinions... but i have no desire to debate them. so as a wiser man than myself once said 
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"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies."
-- Groucho Marx
I'll stick to killing people in video games. 
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Be Brave, Reshape
Create, Reclaim
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07-12-2004 05:13 |
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Eeyore
blessed with friends
Registration Date: 11-04-2002
Clan: wow-ma
Location: Manchester, NH
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socialist governments tend to gradually implode..like the soviet union. The deprivation caused by it is "sweetened" by the illusion of "freebies" big daddy government provides, until no one but the government has any money to spend (read: "power and freedom"), and business is run into the ground or driven out (i.e., like doctors from countries with socialised medicine)
Just look at the growth rate of the GDP of socialist countries and you see this clearly. The soviet system collapsed soonest because it was a less democratically arrived at type of socialism, but the rest will soon follow. China may be an exceeption because it is largely an agrarian society.
One unique standout is Ireland. Granted they are a small country...they have tried to balance some aspects of socialism with a free economy and low taxes, and as a result, their GDP and revenue stream is huge. The totally free health care in Ireland lasts until you are 16, and when you are elderly. They also allow you to have private health insurance and health care, and you get a tax deduction of 20% of your costs. One cool thing they provide is "free" public transportation for anyone over 65....neat. The payoff there is great because retired people have money to spend, and this gets them out to spend it.
Aluzion, I think Canadians and Canada and Canadian beer are the best, but you need to take a hard look at the cost of what your government is providing for "free." The greatest danger of socialism is that people gradually become acccustomed to economic deprivation, and lose the desire to challenge the system for fear of losing "benefits."
In the US, at your age, you would likely not pay a penny for your tuition (grants and federal loans abound), would be covered under the college's health plan for as little as $20 a month, and would look forward to keeping probably 30-40% more of your paycheck when you graduate.
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"We find greatest joy, not in getting, but in expressing what we are...Men do not really live for honors or for pay; their gladness is not the taking and holding, but in doing, the striving, the building, the living. It is a higher joy to teach than to be taught. It is good to get justice, but better to do it; fun to have things but more to make them. The happy man is he who lives the life of love, not for the honors it may bring, but for the life itself." - R.J. Baughan
This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by Eeyore: 07-12-2004 08:53.
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07-12-2004 08:44 |
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ScratchMonkey
Ghost in the Machine
Registration Date: 11-10-2002
Clan: (M*)
Location: San Pablo, CA
Thread Starter
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| quote: |
| The greatest danger of socialism is that people gradually become acccustomed to economic deprivation, and lose the desire to challenge the system for fear of losing "benefits." |
Amen. And I fear that in the US we've already slipped far too far down that slope.
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07-12-2004 09:09 |
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Eeyore
blessed with friends
Registration Date: 11-04-2002
Clan: wow-ma
Location: Manchester, NH
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cuurently in the US, only 14% of the population is uninsured at any given time, and demographics can account for some of this. To confiscate 30-60% of people's income, as they have done in Canada, to alleviate this is simply absurd.
hidden costs of socialised medicine
Under my plan, I could see a doctor today If I wanted to, no waiting, no emergency. I pay a $5 copay for that visit.
Below is a snipet from an arrticle about the lag in medical technoology brought about by socialised medicine.
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Technology Gap
A comparison of technologies shows that many Canadians do not have access to the latest diagnostic machinery and enough treatment facilities at their disposal. To pick a topical example, we have one-tenth the number of nuclear magnetic resonance imaging machines per capita as the United States. While there will always be the question (with no definitive answer) of how many is enough, the fact that private NMRI facilities are opening in Alberta and British Columbia, and that Canadians are going into the United States to get such diagnostic imaging done, suggests that we have not kept pace in this area.
The Congress learned from Dr. William Mackillop of the Kingston Regional Cancer Centre that cancer patients are now getting less radiation therapy for specific cancers than they were getting ten years ago, to their detriment. Less radiation therapy means more surgery, more disfigurement, and less longevity than otherwise would be achieved. Dr. Mackillop pointed out that there was a shortage of radiation therapy units, a shortage of people to operate them, and a shortage of people to train people to operate them. This, he noted, in spite of the fact that the current increasing demand for cancer therapy had been well forecast as early as 1975 because the incidence of cancer is age dependent and the average age of our population is increasing in a very predictable way. The bureaucrats had simply not reacted to the foreseeable need, he pointed out.
Perhaps the most important comment he made to the Congress, concerned a comparison he had made of waiting times for radiation therapy between Canada and the United States. The comparison he offered was based on a comprehensive survey of cancer centers in Canada and the United States. Dr. Mackillop asked the centers to provide the number of weeks that a patient could expect to wait for therapy for cancers of specific types. He found that in every case Canadian patients were waiting longer than American patients. In the case of some cancers, the median wait was three times as long in Canada as it was in the United States."
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Canadians and EU members, open your eyes...you are being economically raped by your government.
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"We find greatest joy, not in getting, but in expressing what we are...Men do not really live for honors or for pay; their gladness is not the taking and holding, but in doing, the striving, the building, the living. It is a higher joy to teach than to be taught. It is good to get justice, but better to do it; fun to have things but more to make them. The happy man is he who lives the life of love, not for the honors it may bring, but for the life itself." - R.J. Baughan
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Eeyore: 07-12-2004 09:34.
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07-12-2004 09:31 |
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ScratchMonkey
Ghost in the Machine
Registration Date: 11-10-2002
Clan: (M*)
Location: San Pablo, CA
Thread Starter
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| quote: |
| This, he noted, in spite of the fact that the current increasing demand for cancer therapy had been well forecast as early as 1975 because the incidence of cancer is age dependent and the average age of our population is increasing in a very predictable way. The bureaucrats had simply not reacted to the foreseeable need, he pointed out. |
This problem isn't restricted to medicine. Socialism uses a one-size-fits-all solution. That's great if you've got the perfect solution, but what if someone makes a mistake? Then that mistake affects all the consumers equally.
Instead, in a market system, lots of different solutions are constantly evolving. Some consumers are guaranteed to lose, but others will win, and those providing losing solutions are weeded out. Over time solutions improve and consumers are better off.
This weeding process is often interfered with, though, by entrenched providers. For instance, consider the great Chrysler bail-out. If you imagine all loan applicants in the US standing in a long line ordered by eligibility, Chrysler had a position somewhere in that line. When the Federal government guaranteed its loans, it effectively allowed the corporation to "cut" the line, jumping way ahead of other more eligible applicants. We all saw the jobs saved as a result of the bail-out. What we didn't see was all the businesses that failed and all the jobs that were lost because of the more-qualified loan applicants who got bumped to the back of the line.
Another example is licensing systems. You mght think these are justified, to protect consumers. But the biggest advocate of licensing systems is entrenched businesses trying to stomp out competition from upstarts. The "beauty" industry is a common example. Hairstylists create baroque and expensive licensing systems to lock out alternative stylists (eg. corn row braiders) for whom the rules aren't even relevant.
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07-12-2004 09:55 |
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Aluzion
Tuque Collector
Registration Date: 03-03-2002
Clan: (MA)
Location: Montreal, Quebec
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Eeyore
Aluzion, I think Canadians and Canada and Canadian beer are the best, but you need to take a hard look at the cost of what your government is providing for "free." The greatest danger of socialism is that people gradually become acccustomed to economic deprivation, and lose the desire to challenge the system for fear of losing "benefits."
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Amen to the beer 
Basically I feel a proprer system lyes in between center and moderate right. Each have their benefits and drawbacks. IMO I hope neither ever changes therefore I can benefit from both. Live in Canada and shop in the US. 
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[citation needed]
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07-12-2004 10:40 |
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ScratchMonkey
Ghost in the Machine
Registration Date: 11-10-2002
Clan: (M*)
Location: San Pablo, CA
Thread Starter
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I think the best system is one where the indvidual can choose which system to live under. We should all be able to subscribe to the government of our choice, no matter where we live. If you want to be Canadian with socialized medicine and live in Rio, it should be possible.
There are obviously local things that this kind of decentralization can't handle (like police and defense), but socialized medicine should be something that can be handled this way.
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07-12-2004 11:29 |
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ScratchMonkey
Ghost in the Machine
Registration Date: 11-10-2002
Clan: (M*)
Location: San Pablo, CA
Thread Starter
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Exactly, ID.
Moreover, suppose my proposed system was implemented, and a person in the US could "subscribe" to be a Canadian "health care citizen". He could go to any medical establishment in the world that also subscribed to be a Canadian health care provider. But wait, who would voluntarily subscribe to be a provider under that system? I suspect not many. So you'd need to enslave a few providers to fill the demand.
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07-12-2004 11:42 |
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Eeyore
blessed with friends
Registration Date: 11-04-2002
Clan: wow-ma
Location: Manchester, NH
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Aluzion, I think Canada stands a far better chance of correcting its health care system than the EU does. I do not believe that the Canadian economy will collapse over it, but when changes are made, such as scaling back the health care or semi-privatizing it (like in Ireland) it will be a jolt for some people, but a relief for many.
The idea of good health care for everyone is noble and great, but the fact that you have to trust politicians to govern it just makes it untenable in my view. I don't trust my government to manage the 11% they already tax me for, and it should be less. The idea of giving them another 20% just so I can wait in line for health care is frightening, not to mention the negative impact on development of new medical treatments and technologies.
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"We find greatest joy, not in getting, but in expressing what we are...Men do not really live for honors or for pay; their gladness is not the taking and holding, but in doing, the striving, the building, the living. It is a higher joy to teach than to be taught. It is good to get justice, but better to do it; fun to have things but more to make them. The happy man is he who lives the life of love, not for the honors it may bring, but for the life itself." - R.J. Baughan
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07-12-2004 13:20 |
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AMOC
Chopper Pilot
Registration Date: 08-08-2003
Clan: (MA)
Location: Texas
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Has anyone really looked at the Hillary Health Care Plan, when her husband was in office.
This is a Brief of her plan should it have been implimented by her husband.
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Hillary's Health Care Plan
In 1994, Hillary Rodham Clinton set out to change the country's health-care system and convened a panel to develop a plan secretly. This was a endeavor paid for by taxpayers, but held behind closed doors-- in violation of federal law.
Important aspects of the plan:
The plan aimed to cut the number of doctors (called "cost centers") by one quarter in order to cut demand by limiting supply.
The plan aimed to cut costs by cutting the number of specialists in half.
The plan prescribed the following fines:
* $5,000 for refusing to join the government-mandated health plan.
* $5,000 for failing to pay premiums on time.
* 15 years to doctors who received "anything of value" in exchange for helping patients short-circuit the bureaucracy.
* $10,000 a day for faulty physician paperwork.
* $50,000 for unauthorized patient treatment.
* $100,000 a day for drug companies that messed up federal filings.
Would have mandated the Federal Government to build a database containing every American's medical records and require all individuals to carry a card containing a chip storing our complete medical history. This information would be available to government officials and researchers without your approval or knowledge.
Would have set out to control the number and type of doctors permitted to practice in an geographical area.
A Congressional Budget Office report (8-10-94) said the bill would cost more than $1 trillion in the first eight years.
An association of U.S. Hospitals study estimated the plan would have added 59 new government offices staffed by 100,000 new bureaucrats.
Hillary quotes about the plan:
When a woman complained that she didn't want to get shoved into a plan not of her choosing, the first lady lectured, "It's time to put the common good, the national interest, ahead of individuals."
When told the plan could bankrupt small businesses, Mrs. Clinton sighed, "I can't be responsible for every undercapitalized small business in America."
Other quotes about the plan:
"I have never read an official document that seemed so suffused with coercion and political naivete ... with its drastic prescriptions for controlling the conduct of state governments, employers, drug manufacturers, doctors, hospitals and you and me."
-- Martha Derthick of the University of Virginia
Senator Moynihan said, "The American people got it clear enough…to cut the number of doctors in the country by a quarter…If you have fewer doctors you have fewer doctor bills. But you don't associate it with improving medicine."
Moynihan also noted, Hillary's bill aimed to cut costs by cutting "the number of specialists in half." Moynihan vehemently objected, arguing that specialists are a function of science--new discoveries create new specialties. Moynihan, defending New York's teaching hospitals which produce specialists, said, "We are not swamped with specialists; we abound in them. And that is surely the glory of this great moment of medical discovery."
The illegality of the panel:
The secrecy of the task force was challenged in a lawsuit by the American Association of Physicians and Surgeons. The judge, imposing $286,000 in sanctions against the administration for the AAPS's legal fees, denounced what he called the "cover-up" of efforts to keep the health care planning secret. Noting that "reprehensible" misstatements had been made to him, he denounced decisions "made at the highest levels of government," which must be held accountable "when its officials run amok." He said the executive branch "was dishonest with this court" and declared that "some government officials never learn that the cover-up can be worse than the underlying conduct."
Would Mrs. Clinton Still Pursue This Plan?:
"You may remember that we tried to do that [pass her health care bill] in 1993 and 1994. We weren't totally successful, but I did not give up." |
This is just one attempted to socialize medicine american style.
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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by AMOC: 07-12-2004 13:41.
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07-12-2004 13:40 |
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DirtMcGirt
l33t
Registration Date: 07-12-2004
Clan: MA
Location: kentucky
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I saw someone post that competition brings about lower costs... if that is true, why are prescription meds so high? If I didn't have insurance, my seizure meds would cost me MORE than my rent does. Can we just have the government reign in the drug companies and leave the rest alone?
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“I’m not going there to die; I’m going to find out if I’m really alive.” - Spike
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07-13-2004 09:15 |
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General Zod
Ruler of Planet Houston
Registration Date: 12-14-2003
Clan: MA
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Costs are high because of the government! Prescription drugs cost a lot because companies are only allowed (because of American regulations) to benefit from a new discovery for a limited amount of time after they patent the formula. For every 1 drug that is released, I think 100 fail during research. Also you have to factor in that the innovating company has to advertise the drug and get it past the FDA. So you're going to pay a lot for new drugs because they have huge costs just to enter a new drug in the market.
Now, Generic drugs on the other hand, are pretty cheap. That's because the formula for these blockbuster drugs (advil for example) becomes public domain and any lab can make it. They compete with other generic companies to produce the same formula, they do no research or marketing. You can get them usually about 8 years after they were first discovered.
Our system isn't that bad if you conceed that new drugs are going to cost a lot and the generics will be cheap.
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07-13-2004 10:55 |
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AMOC
Chopper Pilot
Registration Date: 08-08-2003
Clan: (MA)
Location: Texas
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But also dont forget that tort has a lot to do with the cost of business. How many commercials do you see that runs saying that if you took this drug call Mike Smackittoim your lawyer that will get it done. I have a good friend of mine who is a doctor and is seroiusly considering gettting out of the field. The cost for his insurance is to the point that is you take what he is paying for premiums + paying back school loans + all the overhead it takes for his practice, he is making as much as a Denny's manager.
You want cheaper health care, we have to reign in the lawyers and make reasonable lawsuit compensation. The problem with the medical industry is that they have a problem of canning their quacks.
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07-13-2004 11:06 |
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ScratchMonkey
Ghost in the Machine
Registration Date: 11-10-2002
Clan: (M*)
Location: San Pablo, CA
Thread Starter
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A price is simply an agreement between a buyer and a seller. There's no magic here. A trade occurs when both participants perceive that they walk away with more than they had. Things get a bit more complex when you have multiple buyers and sellers, because you can bid against others in the market. But this doesn't change the fact that each player gains. It just reduces the gain.
The price of a prescription drug will be high because those who want it value it highly, and those who provide it (and they don't have to do that) are unwilling to part with it cheaply because of the costs to produce it (like regulation and the short period available for paying off the development). Immediately after invention there's only one supplier (to protect their development investment) so the price will be especially high during that payoff period.
You can reduce the price by reducing costs, and by increasing the time to pay for development. An "easy" way to do that is to reduce regulatory overhead by allowing faster time to market while recognizing that there will be greater risk, shifting responsibility for that risk to the consumer. In effect, you are trading price for risk. And as a patient, you should have a right to make that choice.
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07-13-2004 11:19 |
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